Episode 58: Selling in Spite of Stigma (With Jana Earley)

Episode 58 October 03, 2022 00:26:15
Episode 58: Selling in Spite of Stigma (With Jana Earley)
The Quit Getting Screwed Construction Podcast
Episode 58: Selling in Spite of Stigma (With Jana Earley)

Oct 03 2022 | 00:26:15


Show Notes

Working as a contractor can come with some stigma. There are all sorts of rumors about construction workers that homeowners perpetuate, and even more niche gossip from trade to trade. Karalynn sits down with Jana Earley, owner and head designer of Luxe Fine Finishes, to talk about how to make the sale despite the biases your potential client may have. In Jana's line of work, a history of tacky 70s- 80s-era plastered walls follows her around. People often worry work of her kind will look too outdated, or simply not sophisticated, which couldn't be further from the truth. In this episode, she talks to Karalynn about how her mindset and business practices help her rise above the rumor mill and connect with clients to make the sale, and how the work she is doing to destigmatize bot faux finishing and contractors will ultimately help her trade, and all trades, continue on!

Tune in for some great insight from one of Houston's finest!


Use Jana's Services: https://www.luxefinefinishes.com 

See What other Folks Have to Say: https://www.houzz.com/pro/luxefinefinishes

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Quit Getting Screwed was recorded on Riverside.fm and is distributed by Castos.


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 00:00:11 This is Carolyn ING. Welcome to the quick getting screwed podcast, where we talk about everything related to contractors, the construction and information to help you run better businesses. Speaker 1 00:00:24 Hey guys, this is Carolyn CRO means and welcome back to the quick getting screwed podcast, where we talk all about the ways not to get screwed in the construction industry and how to help you run a better business. And, you know, sometimes we take some time to dive into people who have, you know, special trades and special things. Like there's some great episodes from Barbie, the welder, if you wanna jump back and listen to that one. So I have another one in that series today. And so today I have with me Jan, early of luck, fine finishes, um, who does some really fine plasters and things like that. And so she's gonna tell us all about her industry and kind of what she does. How are you today, Janet? Speaker 2 00:00:58 I'm doing good. How are you? Speaker 1 00:01:00 Good. So before we dive into like what your company does and everything, tell me a little bit about yourself, like where you started and how you got to where you're at now. Speaker 2 00:01:09 Okay. Um, I started actually in marketing and so I did a lot of digital art and then I was hired by a, for finishing company in Houston and I worked for them doing their marketing for a long time. And then I really liked the owner and we eventually just, I started doing more for her and I became kind of an assistant and then I kind of started helping her run the office. And then I started help. I learned kind of through osmosis and the, we had a school that top of finishing and we had a, we had a business that did a residential for finishing and plaster. And so that's what I kind of learned through her. And then eventually I kind of became the business owner after a while. So we started looks fine finishes, um, when she closed her business and I started with the same crew. So that's how I got here. Speaker 1 00:01:56 Awesome. So you kind of learned the fine finishes through actually doing it through like end school. Speaker 2 00:02:02 I, I helped her market it more. I learned because I was around the school, but I actually was never while I did a little bit of oh, finishing in my past, which probably looks atrocious to me now. Um, because it was just popular thing to do. Um, I actually never did most people get into it, doing the art first and being on the wall is what we say, but I was never really on the wall as part of the crew. I was always in the back seat. So I was helping run the jobs and run the business. And then I, because I understood art, it lend itself to, I understood how it worked and understood the layering of everything. It reminded me a lot of what I did on the computer. Um, it kind of worked similarly, so it just made sense in my head and it, it worked out so being around the class definitely helped. Good. Speaker 1 00:02:48 Awesome. So tell me, what is your definition of Fae finish and like the definition you like to use, and then you can go over like what, what the bad, the bad, you know, the, the bad, what it pop, it pops on everybody's mind when they hear that <laugh> Speaker 2 00:03:02 Right. So, uh, a lot of times we'll say we're decorative painters because, um, so what I mean, what decorative painting or FA finishing is, is just making something look like something it's not right. So maybe I wanna have something on the walls. It looks like wallpaper, but I don't wanna put wallpaper on the walls because I don't want the seams or they don't make the one I want anymore, or I can't find anything. I like, that's what we do. So we do custom finishes that a lot of times people will think our wallpaper or they'll think they're, um, we did a ceiling that was gathered fabric. So it was a mural, but because it was done in a Trump Loy way, it looks like fabric on the ceiling. Um, and then that's what plaster kind of does. So, you know, thousands of years ago when they wanted it to look like stone, but it wouldn't hold up. Speaker 2 00:03:44 The stone was too heavy for the, for the places they were building, they created plaster. So it's that, that's kind of what it is to me. People sort of think Fae finishing and we call it the F-word sometimes, uh, because they think the terrible eighties and nineties sped on bad Mexican restaurant kind of overdone. Um, and, and while that was something that was very popular, then there was still a lot of great decorative painting there. Ha I mean, decorative painting goes back to the caves <laugh> so there's been a lot of good all through time that always gets done. A lot of people think it's outta style, but actually it's never gone away. It's just tends to be indifferent. Um, it sometimes it's the highlight. Sometimes it's not, sometimes you see it and you don't realize you're seeing it too, so never goes away. That's people have a bad take. Right. <laugh> right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And some, yeah, people just tend to remember the really awful instead of, you know, some of the beautiful stuff that's out there. Speaker 1 00:04:41 So tell me more about your business side, your residential commercial, a little both. Tell me, tell me what, what Lux fine finishes does. Speaker 2 00:04:48 Right. We're mostly residential. Um, in the past couple of years, we started doing a bit of commercial, but we're a small business. We like to be really hands on and really care about our client and the finish that goes on the wall. And so sometimes that's not that doesn't fit the bill for every commercial job. Sometimes it's, you know, it moves a little faster or it's, um, you know, it's not always the right fit. So I tend to do more residential. I work with mostly high end, uh, custom builders and designers. And so the designer can really see a vision for, oh, I really love a texture on this wall. I'd really love, you know, a particular hand painted finish. Um, I would say most designers, if they've never used bow finishing, they probably just are more familiar with having wallpaper and having that kind of installation to give them, um, some emphasis on the wall. And it's designers that have kind of learned that, oh yeah, I can do so much more with decorative painting. Uh, we can, you know, build textures. We can build movement, depth, all that just with, you know, our tools and it's you paint right over it. If you're done, there's no seams. So all that. Stuff's good. So that's kinda what we do mostly, mostly high end residential. Speaker 1 00:05:59 Gotcha. So for like when you're saying the wallpaper, so you like paint the pattern on the wall, tell me, tell me if like, if I wanted like a wallpaper pattern that didn't exist anymore. So what would that look like? I'm very curious. Sure. Speaker 2 00:06:09 So it depends on the scope, right? Depends what we're doing. So there's everything from like, um, like you still see stenciling a lot. Right? A lot of us have bad memories of that too, from like the borders stinc, that was really awful fruit and whatnot. Um, so that, that can actually be really modern and cool. And so there can be like a repeating pattern. Um, I would say like that in the two thousands ish, uh, quarter foil was like all the rage. Like there were so many patterns of cuatro foil in tile in wallpapers and whatever. So like, let's say you see a wallpaper, that's a repeating geometric. Like we can do that. There's some wallpapers that are like very, very heavily or ornamented. Maybe they're a silver leaf background. And then they're hand painted on top of that's the kind of stuff we do. Speaker 2 00:06:53 And then we do dabble in making our own handmade papers from time to time. But they look, they're more cohesive. There's not the, the lines like you have in wallpaper. It's not like a printed sheet. So you get a lot more organic things. So that's kind of like, yeah, we could make a repeating pattern. We could make a mural. We could make, you know, random designs on the wall that, that sounds it's cohesive. It makes sense. You know, it looks good on the wall. A lot of times that happens with like a really big space, like a really big powder bath, or a really big, um, you know, master bath where you do like a plaster wall and then some little nice design, just, you know, flowers or particular design. They're just random on the wall. Speaker 1 00:07:30 Cool. Very cool. So how, what are you doing to overcome the stigma of like the stencils, the Fae finish with the sponge thing? Right. Wall faces, all the stuff Speaker 2 00:07:39 <laugh> I, I think once people come into the studio or sometimes when they see my website or my pictures, I don't think they actually know what I do still. So it's when I get 'em in the studio and we sit down, we have like a little dog and pony show and we take out samples and say, okay, here's an example of wallpaper that was no retired. And this client liked it, you know, but she wanted a different color way. So we changed the entire color to be more top. And then we hand painted on top of it and this is what we did. And we changed these features so that we weren't just, you know, we like to create our own thing, but inspiration's always great. So, um, that's what I think once they see that and they realize like with the right client, it'll open up all these creativity ideas and like, oh, well, could you do this? Speaker 2 00:08:22 Or could I put it here? You know, what could we do about that? So there's, that's when it really seems to click for people. And that's where I think just me being kind of educating other people in the industry on like what it is I really do. And, um, a lot of times people will see things in articles or magazines and they're just pretty pictures, you know, and they know they like it, but they don't realize like, oh, you like it because there's plaster on the wall or that's, you know, a hand painted finish behind that couch, you know, that kind of thing. So kind of just letting people know we exist that we're around, this is what we do. And, um, it kind of opens their mind and that kind of lets them then realize like, oh, it's this really fun, custom option I have for my clients. Speaker 1 00:09:02 So tell me about your favorite project that you've ever done. You don't have to gimme like names or deep, just like, yeah. What was your favorite project you've ever done? Speaker 2 00:09:10 Favorite project ever done? Uh, was this great house in, um, in the Woodlands, we call it the, uh, the Vegas house because it was like very colorful and very over the top. It's in my portfolio, you'll see pictures of it. Um, one of my favorite things was though we created a, um, a theater room that was hand painted to look James Bond esque. So we didn't wanna do, um, you know, James, John is highly cooperated, but they liked the idea of the movies and the just spy kind of theme. So I was able to create, um, their whole layout of their theater room with all these giant characters. And we did like metallic plaster all over the walls. And then we did a martini stencil, you know, tone on sun on the plaster. And then we painted these big characters on top and all these fun colors, and it really gave them the feel they wanted. Speaker 2 00:10:02 And it was super unique and special. And their whole house was kind of that way that they let us have a lot of fun with color. The designers really great. She and I are, if I could clone her, I would. So it was just, it was a great project cuz the clients were amazing. People, the designer was fun to work with and then the whole project turned out really beautifully. And we got to just, most of the time, most of the things we do are very neutral and beautiful, but this client just let us flex all of our fun, creative, like every, all over the top thing we got to do it. So that was always fun. Speaker 1 00:10:30 That's amazing. That's amazing. Did you ever have any thoughts about cuz you're such a specialized trade? Is there, there's not a lot of other people that do what you do? Speaker 2 00:10:40 There's a handful of us like there's um, I would say in the, in the arena of like the high end designers and, and custom, there's a few companies in town that are really good at what they do. Um, I feel like we all kind of specialize in a particular way. Like we do a lot of finishes that other people don't do. And then there's like a lot of people that do plaster. Right. And then there's a lot of people that do a mix of sort of glazing and this and that. So there's people out there that do what I do, but it's smaller and smaller. It's the, there used to be schools that taught it and now most of those are closed. And so yeah, we're doing a lot to try to continue the education with our crews that they, we don't lose anything from like cuz a lot of my artists, you know, a few of them are aging out because they've just been in the business for so long. And so I'm trying to bring new people in to sort of, you know, learn those trades so that they don't disappear. Speaker 1 00:11:35 So that was my question. Do you ever have any thoughts about bringing that school back? That Speaker 2 00:11:40 I am tempted on days where like, you know, uh, I feel like being a business owner, you have two problems. You either have not enough work and too many people or too many people or you know, not enough people and too much work, you know? Right. So whenever I'm in one of those situations where I'm like, oh no, I need, you know, five more hands. Um, <laugh> I often think about training people, uh, what ended up happening. And one of the reasons I think many schools closes is they ended up training competitors more than they were training, just like the general public. They had a fun, wanted to do a fun week of training or something. So, um, but I actually have instituted some training classes just within my crew. I bring because I'm lucky enough to have been around the school to know those people I can bring in and say, Hey, will you teach this or that? And then we're trying to pull up the younger generation. Um, my plaster crew is a family. So we're constantly pulling in, you know, the younger family members and getting them kind of acclimated and learn the trade so that it doesn't go away. Speaker 1 00:12:36 And so I don't have, I didn't have this on your questions, but um, on the boss side of things, how do you, how is that learning experience for you? Where are you at, you know, you know, running people and you know, just, how do you feel you are as a boss? I'm curious, Speaker 2 00:12:53 Man. I hope I'm a good boss. <laugh> I try to be, um, I've never been shy to take control or be in charge of something that was always, I think as a kindergartner that was on my report card is that I'm a mother hen and I was, you know, trying to tell the other kids what to do. Um, I, you know, I like to see a problem and solve it and I know what you should do to solve it. You know? Uh, I had a really great mentor that made becoming a boss really easy. So because I got to work for her at her company, her company was open 30 years and I got to work for her for 10 of those years. And um, being able to transition from, you know, helping her run the business to owning the business was really just a huge blessing and just like a gift because most people flounder and have no idea make a lot of mistakes. Speaker 2 00:13:43 And I still made plenty of mistakes. I'm sure at being a boss, but, um, but she helped me kind of, I watched her avoid, you know, things and she was a great boss to me. So she was a good example. And then she's helped me along the way to like, oh yeah, don't do that. Do this instead. It was just, it was so nice to have. So I had a lot of women in the industry come around me and support me from different angles and like set me up from everything from like, oh, here's a good CPA. Here's this, here's that. So it's been like a really nice transition. And I feel like as a boss, like I hope I'm a good one. I, my big thing was, there's a lot of people in my industry and in construction in general that take advantage, um, of labor people that are in a laborer kind of position, which my guys are more artists and tradesmen, but I never wanna be that person. Speaker 2 00:14:27 So I'm really proud that we pay all of our people, a great living wage and that they kind of get to be, they're so good at what they do that I have the luxury of like, they're really in charge of what they're doing and I'm, you know, I have my project management and I come behind and I, you know, notate what I notate and like, Hey, let's change this. Or, Hey, I see that, that could be a little different, but for the most part, they're so wonderful that there's a lot, I don't have to manage. So I feel like they make it easy being a boss or being a good boss. Got you. Um, so, and we've worked together for a long, I was lucky to bring them with me. So a lot of us already knew how to work together as a team. And so that's kind of my whole while on the boss and the buck stops with me. And so I have to, I have a lot to say about certain things. Um, I also feel like I give a lot of openness to like bring good ideas to the table. And how would you do it better? Like let's, you know, let's see what are, what I did we have to work with and let's pick the best one. So I try to keep that in mind too. So I hope I do a good job <laugh> I try. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:15:27 No, absolutely. And it's hard. So like have you, is it hard to find somebody that's interested in this kind of work? Like Speaker 2 00:15:34 Yeah. It's um, it's hard to where Speaker 1 00:15:37 Do you get people outta art school or, or is it is a combination of, you know, education or can anybody, can anybody do this if they were interested? I guess Speaker 2 00:15:47 I think that anybody with an in, with a true interest could do it right? Like you could learn how to do it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I think certain personality types, it definitely lends to, because there's a lot of people that do pretty good for finishing. Right. And then there's people that do what, like the artists, I feel like that are my team do excellent. Like I, the one reason I can go out and sell them, like UN shame is cuz I don't think there's anybody better. You know? And so finding those people to add to the team where I'm like, you can learn, like there's a lot of people that have picked up bad habits and they have a few skill sets. So those, I feel like those are harder to integrate. So I'm kind of ex I feel like it's easier to train someone to sort of do it the, what I would say the right way. Speaker 2 00:16:30 Right, right. Um, we don't cut corners. We're like very big on how we prep a room. You know, we're, we're also not the most inexpensive pro finishers in town. And that's why, because we put a lot of emphasis on the products we use that they're high level, low VOC products made for pro finishing. There's a lot of people out there that put all manner stuff on walls and it looks good for a while. Um, or to look good maybe forever, but it, it may not be, you may not know what it is or however, find it again, that kind of thing. So we try to like have a lot of industry standards and work within a lot of, um, parameters that were sort of set with me before that have proven to be, you know, best practice kind of. And so finding people that are, can fit into that team as far as personality and skillset and like level of excellence, I find that hard. So I'm probably as a boss, I'm probably a little picky when it comes to that. I'm probably more picky than my client most of the times, because I don't want there to be room for error. So no, Speaker 2 00:17:28 That's, that's probably my picky point. <laugh> Speaker 1 00:17:31 No, I absolutely. I absolutely agree. So we kind of talked about, you know, the different types of what are like the different types of finishes that you do. We've talked about plaster mm-hmm <affirmative> are there any, I don't know, the technical names. Speaker 2 00:17:43 Sure. So it, it kind of just lumps into finishes, right? So FA finishing side, I kind of divide them 'em so what we do is mineral mineral based plasterers, that's gonna be like high shine, Venetian plaster, very reflective, um, made out of like lime and marble dust. Um, diamond plaster we do, which is more natural matte picks up light. It's got a little, it's got lime marble dust and some other aggregates inside it. And so they all kind of have a different look to them. We do line plasterers that look different as well, but they're, um, all made of minerals. So they're no VOC then on the Fae finishing side everything's oh, volatile. Um, yeah, put me on spot. Um, I can never back is very well, but it's like volatile something chemicals basically like the smell and paint. So like if you're painting with a lacker that has a very high VOC because of the chemicals that are in it, and it's not very eco-friendly and it's not really good for you to be, and it off gases, it's more natural. Speaker 2 00:18:38 So all of our plasters are natural. And then we have acrylic based products which are low VO, like, so that's like everything's based acrylic, BA paint based paint. So when we do them, there's not a lot, there's really relatively, no smell. It's all a very easy cuz we wanted to be able to breathe it for a long time and it not affect our health and we want you to live in it and it not off gas and affect your health either. So that's, that was set up for me. You know, I kind of took it from there and kept going that way. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, um, yeah. So, so when the acrylic finishes like in the foe finishing side of things, you have everything from like glazed cabinets. We do textures on cabinets. We do, um, textures on walls, right? So it's not all just pain or glaze lazed by the way is like a transparent medium where, um, you can see through it, but it adds color. Speaker 2 00:19:26 So kind of think of it as like a basket that, that has like colored cellophane around it. You can still see through, but it adds color. So that's what glaze does. So a lot of finishes are done with glaze back in the nineties, we've progressed a lot. So we've got metallic plasters, matte plasterers that are all fo based that are acrylic based. And then with those kind of textures and resins, we can build all manner of things on your wall. So we can emboss it with the design. We can do stenciling, we can do hand painting where it's literally a mural art on your wall. So there's, it's just kind of the, sky's the limit. Um, we've done really abstract, cool stuff, and we've done really traditional, you know, beautiful birds and, you know, Chinoy and all that. So it, it can go anywhere. Somebody would Speaker 1 00:20:10 Come with you like with like an idea. So like I want do my, um, my logo in my entryway and I want it to be really. So then you would come with the ideas of what would look cool. Speaker 2 00:20:21 Yeah. And usually I'm working with like a designer and so the designer will say like, Hey, here's like three, you know, I'll, I'll usually ask like what's in the room, you know, designers, and then there's differences in clients too. Right. With, with some of my designers I've worked with for a long time, we just know each other well, and she'll say, you know, oh, I think I wanna do this or that. Or it's really important that it's sparkly. <laugh>, you know, like everything needs extra sparkle on this job. And so then I kind of have an idea of directions. I'm gonna go and then I'll just lay out some stuff and say, okay, what about this? Or remember that job we did. And we kinda have things to refer to. And then I have other clients that come very much succinctly. Like I have this picture, I don't know what this is back here, but this is what I wanna create. And, and that's where, you know, it's like, okay, that could be done a couple different ways. And we kind of figure out where the price point is, where, what direction they wanna go in. So it's very much like commissioning a painting sort of, but you're doing your, all your walls. So you get to come in and say, that's what I would like to do. Speaker 1 00:21:20 That's so amazing. Um, I'm trying to think what other questions I had. Is there any something I'm missing that I should know, being somebody that does know a lot about FA finishes and, and, and, and that type of stuff, what would you, what would you tell me like a potential client? I want to know more about what you and I, to make sure I didn't miss anything. Speaker 2 00:21:40 Right. I would say, I think the most important things about what I do is the foundation is key, right? So if your walls are not smooth, like if you have texture on your walls that has to be removed and that's service we offer, or if you're doing a whole full remodel, I usually recommend your contractor does it. Um, and Texas, because we don't have like a union or anything. Sometimes those very smooth walls are very straight framing. Walls can be, um, you know, hard to find there. Not a lot of people here don't like to do a level five finish. That's usually what we prefer to go over, but as long as it's smooth and straight, um, and that, that just them knowing that a lot of people think full finishing would hide flaws on their wall. And it actually doesn't, it does a very opposite. Speaker 2 00:22:20 You're putting something it's like, you know, I tell some of my clients, you know, it's like putting a dress on with and without right. You know, <laugh> that absolutely that, um, you know, like, or address is not gonna hide anything for you, but if you get your foundation right, you know, it looks a lot better. So it's the same kind of thing, um, that if you put work into the prep first, when I, my, my best case scenarios are always clients that listen, uh, builders that are really easy to work with and are like, yeah, let me get you what you need versus trying to put a corner. We're just not the cutting corner kind of people. So that's really the best part. And I guess my favorite phrase that I picked up along the way is, um, a lot of times I'll have clients that, um, will say, oh, it's just a really small space. Speaker 2 00:23:03 It's a really small bathroom, you know? And so it's not that much. And, and, um, my mentor, her favorite phrase was always, our art has no idea where it lives. It just costs what it costs. And so that was one of our things is like, it doesn't know where it lives. So, and, and, and one of the things that's kind of confusing for some clients is a very long, tall wall is easier. It takes less time than a wall. That's cut up with a lot of like windows or a tiny bathroom that's up full of corners. So that actually takes longer. So a lot of our fees are based on time and not square footage. And I think that's probably a misconception too, is people expect everything pretty much in building. They get a square foot price on. So it's a little different, like, because it's not paint, this wall might have, you know, five layers on it that I'm touching and there's dry time in between each layer. So that's how everything is very custom even to the pricing of it. And, um, so we try to work, you know, with all of our clients, within whatever budget everybody's got an internal budget. Right. So whatever budget set. Yeah. Yeah. That's the other thing is they can come with a budget. That's always helpful too. Mm-hmm <affirmative> Speaker 1 00:24:02 Gotcha. So that was my question. So do you like do a, do you bill like per project or per hour or combination? Speaker 2 00:24:09 So it's usually based on the amount of people, the time that will be there and the product that's we're we're using. So it's kind of the scope, right? So obviously you're doing a whole house, like whole house is sometimes we'll do in plaster and that is on a square, but a square foot price, because it's a little easier to do that way. That's just a product that we have down the way it applies. It just works that way. Yeah. But when you get into, okay, we want this, you know, that theater room, for instance, it was a metallic plaster and then a design on top, like a stencil on top all over. And then it was a hand painted mural on top of that. So that's got like, you know, 14 layers to it. Not really, but you know, it's got a lot of layers mm-hmm <affirmative> and a lot of dry time for each thing. So that builds very much differently than doing plaster walls. So that's how it gets custom. Is that, um, most of the time it's just time and bodies that are there. It it's like a day rate kind of based on that. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:25:04 Okay, cool. Awesome. So if somebody wanna know more about what you do and, and, you know, contact you, where, where would they reach out? Where would they find all your info info? Speaker 2 00:25:13 Uh, we're definitely online. So our website L find finishes.com. And then from there, they can find us on social media under the same name, Instagram TikTok, Facebook, LinkedIn, I think, I mean, we're kind of everywhere that we can be online places. <laugh> have all the places Speaker 1 00:25:29 <laugh> yeah. You gotta be in social everywhere. There's so many different platforms. Yes. Speaker 2 00:25:34 Uhhuh <affirmative> Speaker 1 00:25:35 Well, especially like what, what you do. It's so cool to put out up, put up there, but I've been been to your website. I'm impressed with all the work you do, so, Speaker 2 00:25:42 Oh, thank you so much. Speaker 1 00:25:43 Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate it. Speaker 2 00:25:46 Yes. Ma'am. It's great being Speaker 1 00:25:47 Here. All right. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of quick getting screwed. I hope you found it helpful if you like what you hear, please like us and follow our podcast. If you want further information, you can find [email protected]. We're also on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram, and the book is available on Amazon. Thank you.

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Episode 26: Learn Your Liens- Ohio! (With Andrew Good)

Let's talk liens. Ohio liens, specifically! Karalynn sits down with Andrew Good on this week's episode, an Ohio construction attorney and long-time Liens pro....